WITNESS LEE REVEALEDTHE LOCAL CHURCHES · SOURCES & CONTEXT
Primary source · Recorded telephone conversation · 1978

Sal Benoit and Witness Lee

Sal Benoit 與李常受

Sal Benoit 与李常受

Сэл Бенуа и Уитнес Ли

살 브누아와 위트니스 리

A telephone conversation in which Boston elder Sal Benoit questions Witness Lee about Living Stream Ministry funds, Overseas Christian Stewards, Phosphorus, and Daystar-related debts.

Read the transcript ↓ Watch documentary ↓ View original PDF ↗ Discuss on Reddit ↗
Why this call matters

A double standard on financial accountability

Benoit asks direct questions about money connected with Living Stream Ministry, Overseas Christian Stewards, the Taiwan manufacturer Fosforus, and Daystar. Lee acknowledges that OCS owned Fosforus, Fosforus made the Daystar motor homes, and Daystar owed OCS money. But the call’s sharpest point is the double standard Lee creates: he tells Benoit that church accounts belong to all the saints and that Benoit is responsible to show them how the accounts are kept, then calls Living Stream “my personal ministry” and says, “I’m not responsible to anyone. I’m only responsible to the government.” When Benoit presses about Daystar, Lee replies, “This is not your business. No, I don’t answer you.”

Documentary companion

Watch the 1978 phone call

A documentary presentation of this recorded conversation, with the source transcript and financial context below.

The financial structure discussed in the call

How Phosphorus and Daystar were separated

Lee described Overseas Christian Stewards as an unregistered stewardship represented by himself and two associates. He said it owned the Taiwan factory Phosphorus, which manufactured motor homes for Daystar, while the American Daystar company sold them.

Why the Daystar money trail raised suspicion

OCS and Phosphorus sat upstream; Daystar investors carried the U.S. sales risk.

  • Church and nonprofit money
  • Opaque intermediaries
  • For-profit business
  • Relationships Lee stated in the call
  • The unresolved question Benoit raised
Church and nonprofit money: Church in Boston

Released the disputed $100,000 loan

Church and nonprofit money: Living Stream Ministry

Nonprofit ministry receiving donations and training income

$100,000 loan LSM loan
Opaque intermediaries: Overseas Christian Stewards

Represented by Lee and associates

Not registered, according to Lee

Factory owner and Daystar’s creditor: a position that could insulate it from Daystar’s sales losses.

Owned by OCS
Opaque intermediaries: Phosphorus, TaiwanUpstream manufacturer

Owned by OCS, according to Lee

Motor homes
For-profit business: Daystar Motor HomesPrivate, for-profit company

Witness Lee was president

Members invested and lost money

Owed OCS, according to Lee

U.S. sales failed
For-profit business: Daystar investors carried the risk

Members absorbed documented losses when the American sales venture failed.

Those who insisted on repayment were typically paid; many others were asked to waive what they were owed (Artemis Belt).

The question Benoit pressed

Did nonprofit LSM money ultimately pay Daystar’s debts?

Why critics suspected money laundering
  • Religious funds and commercial debts were connected.
  • An unregistered intermediary sat between the entities.
  • The same leadership network controlled the relationships.
  • Lee would not give Benoit a complete accounting.
What the record does and does not show

The call documents the entities, loans, ownership, debt, and Lee’s refusal to explain the full path. It does not, by itself, prove the crime of money laundering.

LSM says Boston loaned Anaheim, was repaid in 1976, and cites a later IRS no-change review.

Solid arrows show relationships Lee stated in the call. The dashed box is Benoit’s unresolved question about nonprofit funds and Daystar debt, not a proven transaction.
What the structure shows

The factory and creditor side sat upstream from Daystar: OCS owned Phosphorus, Phosphorus made the motor homes, and Lee said Daystar owed OCS. That structure could leave OCS and Phosphorus holding the value of what they supplied or were owed while Daystar’s investors carried the American sales risk. Daystar stopped operating when the market failed, and members who financed it lost money.

What the record does not prove

That is an inference from the ownership and debt structure, not proof that OCS was paid in full, that Phosphorus made a profit, or that Witness Lee personally kept money. The call supplies no invoices, payment ledger, profit figures, or distribution records showing how much Phosphorus retained.

The accountability contrast

Lee’s own distinction creates a sharp accountability contrast. He says, “The church is the church of all the saints,” and tells Benoit, “You are responsible to show the saints how the account is kept.” He then calls the ministry “my personal ministry” and says, “I’m not responsible to anyone. I’m only responsible to the government.” The same speaker invokes the saints’ right to know about church accounts while denying any comparable responsibility for his own ministry.

Further reading · Response and analysis

Read the response to Shepherding Words

The LSM-aligned response published by Shepherding Words explains the Daystar failure, cites the Boston repayment and accounting review, and denies financial misconduct. Our blog post examines why those points do not resolve the central questions raised by the recorded call: investor losses, the related entities, disclosure, and accountability. It distinguishes the recording’s documented statements from claims the record does not prove.

LSM response
Read Shepherding Words ↗
Our analysis
Why Daystar was not Paul’s tentmaking →
Beyond this call · Related testimony

The wider Daystar record

The Benoit call is one recording among several accounts of Daystar. These come from insider testimony and compiled critical sources, not from this transcript, and carry the same limits noted throughout the site: no ledgers, bank statements, or independent audits accompany them.

“He was known to have had a prostitute stay with him.”
Steve Isitt, A History of the Lord’s Recovery in the U.S. ↗Isitt places this alleged incident in Timothy Lee’s living quarters near the Daystar plant in Taipei. The compilation does not name the witness or reproduce an underlying document, so this remains a serious compiled insider allegation, not an independently confirmed fact.
“Later the son mentioned to some saints that 2.5 million U. S. dollars disappeared from his hands.”
Reconsideration of the Vision, 1988 ↗The anonymous 1988 insider pamphlet, referring to Timothy Lee, does not explain whether “disappeared” meant business losses, missing funds, or misappropriation. It supplies no ledger tracing the money.
“Mr. X then asked one of his co-workers … to persuade the saints, who invested their money to consider the investment as a donation and not seek to be reimbursed.”
Reconsideration of the Vision, 1988 ↗The same anonymous pamphlet’s allegation concerning Daystar investors.
“Most were intimidated into taking a big bath.”
Brent Barber, James Barber Family Testimony ↗Barber says members were strongly discouraged from seeking reimbursement after financial ventures promoted in meetings failed.
“They have lost their virginity.”
Witness Lee, as recalled by Don Hardy ↗Hardy says Lee used these words after John Smith raised the suffering caused by Daystar and said the saints somehow needed to be repaid. When Dick Taylor asked what Lee meant, Lee said the saints had lost their first love, become mixed, and been seduced.
“Why, the ‘little precious man’ sitting right in front of us, IS THE MAN who seduced us all!!”
Don Hardy, recalling the Daystar elders’ meeting ↗Hardy says this was his unspoken answer to the question nobody publicly asked: who had seduced the saints? In his own mind, the answer was the man sitting before them: Witness Lee.
“Philip Lee and the grandsons of Lee had fat Swiss bank accounts.”
Brent Barber, James Barber Family Testimony ↗Barber called the accounts slush funds from Living Stream. No bank statement or transfer record accompanies his testimony, and he did not connect the alleged accounts specifically to Daystar.

Read the full Daystar section, including the Taiwan 1959 and Linkou allegations →

Original transcript · page 1 of 18
Recording note:

(Phone Rings)

Sister Lee:

(Female voice): Hello

Sal Benoit:

Hello. Is Brother Lee there?

Sister Lee:

(Female voice): Oh, he’s not here. Who is this?

Sal Benoit:

This is Sal Benoit.

Sister Lee:

Oh, he is not here.

Sal Benoit:

Oh.

Sister Lee:

(Female voice): You are home?

Sal Benoit:

Yes. Do you know how I can get in touch with him?

Sister Lee:

(Female voice): Oh, he just go out, but let me see if he come back or not.

Sal Benoit:

Okay.

Witness Lee:

(Lee answers): Hello.

Sal Benoit:

Brother Lee?

Witness Lee:

Yes.

Sal Benoit:

Hi. This, this is Sal Benoit.

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

How are you?

Witness Lee:

Fine, thank you.

Sal Benoit:

Good. How was your trip?

Witness Lee:

Very good.

Sal Benoit:

Good. Good.

Witness Lee:

Uh.

Sal Benoit:

I, probably, you know, the main reason why I’m calling,

Witness Lee:

Huh.

Sal Benoit:

most likely, I don’t know if, you probably have been hearing what’s been happening here and everything …

Witness Lee:

Uh Huh.

Sal Benoit:

But I just have some, questions you know, that I just feel really before the Lord . . . .

Original transcript · page 2 of 18
Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

to ask . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

You know we’ve been together for a long time . . . .

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

And I’ve given my life . . . .

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

For the same ..

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh

Sal Benoit:

purpose.

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

And sure, things have come down now to the point that I need to make probably one of the most important decisions of my life, so I’d just like to ask you some questions and I really pray that you’d not avoid answering any, but as you taught us, and as we know in the Bible, you know, just to keep the things in the light and really in honesty; Well, these are the questions that I have: They’re mainly due firstly to the uh finances.

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

The matter of the, that the Living Stream Ministry ….

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

We know that we make all our training …

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

checks to the Living Stream Ministry ….

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

And I just want to know if some of the money, if it has ever gone to the paying of the Daystar loans or losses. . . .

Witness Lee:

(chuckling)

Sal Benoit:

that we’ve had in the past.

Witness Lee:

Well, Sal, I will say this is not your business.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh. Well … !

Witness Lee:

Why you have to ask this?

Sal Benoit:

The main, the main reason why …

Witness Lee:

O.K.

Sal Benoit:

Is, number one …

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

Is, I have been in the lead in a local church …

Witness Lee:

Right.

Original transcript · page 3 of 18
Sal Benoit:

Giving myself to this …

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

and encouraging people

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

to give themselves, too ….

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

I don’t think I have ever missed – if I have missed, maybe one, or two trainings in my

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

church experience …

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

And I just wanted to know, I, please …

Witness Lee:

(words not clear)

Sal Benoit:

Please, will….

Witness Lee:

(words not clear)

Sal Benoit:

Will---I just ask you please, that ….

Witness Lee:

I just tell you ….

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

All the donations ….

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

were donated …

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

to the Living Stream ….

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

It all went to the Living Stream account.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

That is legal.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Living Stream is a legal, tax deduction . . .

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Co-pation, corporation.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

That’s it.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh. Well, ….

Witness Lee:

About Daystar, that is not your business.

Sal Benoit:

Well, the letter of ….

Witness Lee:

No, I don’t answer you.

Sal Benoit:

Well, ….

Witness Lee:

I have no responsibility to answer anyone about this.

Sal Benoit:

Well, Brother Lee, I of course I realize that, you

Original transcript · page 4 of 18
Sal Benoit:

know, on the one hand, it’s up to you, but on the other hand …

Witness Lee:

No. No.

Sal Benoit:

on the other hand, on

Witness Lee:

(words not clear)

Sal Benoit:

the other hand, I realize, that, you know, it’s like this has been our thing, because so many years we’ve all given ourselves to it as partners, so that on the other hand I feel that you also owe it to me. I know on the one hand its, I don’t need to know….

Witness Lee:

I say again ….

Sal Benoit:

But then on the other hand I feel I do need to know.

Witness Lee:

I say again ….

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

The donations were given to the Living Stream ….

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Living Stream is a tax deduction corporation.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh, uh-huh,

Witness Lee:

It is a legal thing.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

What Living Stream, how Living Stream spends its money is all in the account.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

That is legal account is all I can tell you.

Sal Benoit:

Can we see the legal account?

Witness Lee:

You have no right to … Not you …

Sal Benoit:

Oh, we don’t? Well, I’m a part ….

Witness Lee:

No.

Sal Benoit:

I feel, a contributor …

Witness Lee:

No.

Sal Benoit:

to this. . . .

Witness Lee:

No. You have no right. Um-hmm.

Sal Benoit:

Okay. I’ll go on to the second question.

Witness Lee:

This is too much, Sal.

Sal Benoit:

Well, I think it’s very important, Brother Lee.

Witness Lee:

No. No. No. I must say a word to you. This is too much.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

This is too much…

Sal Benoit:

Well, Brother Lee, I can’t see why not. Look, I was just . . . .

Witness Lee:

Right. You’re going …

Sal Benoit:

Somebody . . . . Somebody just came to

Original transcript · page 5 of 18
Witness Lee:

Okay.

Sal Benoit:

me two weeks, let’s see, a week and a half ago ….

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

and asked me, because they had heard certain things, that the property

Witness Lee:

Who asked you …

Sal Benoit:

at 50 Dudley Road was

Witness Lee:

Yeah

Sal Benoit:

under my name

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh

Sal Benoit:

and they asked me to …

Witness Lee:

Who are these?

Sal Benoit:

Well, one brother, [a brother’s name] here ….

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh

Sal Benoit:

he wanted to know where ….

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

What I was doing with certain things financially

Witness Lee:

The church ….

Sal Benoit:

And on the one ….

Witness Lee:

The church is, Sal

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

The church is the church of all the saints.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh, Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Right?

Sal Benoit:

Right.

Witness Lee:

You are responsible to show the saints how the account is kept.

Sal Benoit:

Right.

Witness Lee:

Okay. The ministry is my personal ministry and

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh, Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

this is incorporated.

Sal Benoit:

Okay, there are no …

Witness Lee:

I’m not responsible to

Sal Benoit:

Okay.

Witness Lee:

anyone. I’m only responsible to the government.

Sal Benoit:

Okay, then, the other matter was that, as the church here . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

We loaned Overseas Christian Stewards quite a lot of money . . . .

Witness Lee:

No, You don’t loan.

Sal Benoit:

We loaned.

Witness Lee:

No, we resend [unclear word - may be “refund”]. Didn’t we resend?

Original transcript · page 6 of 18
Sal Benoit:

No, no, ., . . .

Witness Lee:

No, no, no, no.

Sal Benoit:

Well, you did that . . . .

Witness Lee:

Listen . . . .

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

You loaned to us

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

through Max

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

hundred thousand dollars.

Sal Benoit:

Right.

Witness Lee:

We resend fifty,

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Another twenty-five,

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Another twenty-five.

Sal Benoit:

Right.

Witness Lee:

That’s all.

Sal Benoit:

Okay. I know we loaned it, but what did we lend it to?

Witness Lee:

To Overseas Steward.

Sal Benoit:

Okay. And what is this?

Witness Lee:

This is a corporation.

Sal Benoit:

Yes?

Witness Lee:

See, you have no right to

Sal Benoit:

Well, . . . .

Witness Lee:

Ask this, you see, you loaned the money to this name, to this (unclear words) . . . .

Sal Benoit:

Well, Brother Lee, again I felt that I . . . .

Witness Lee:

(chuckling)

Sal Benoit:

We did lend the money and I needed to know . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

I need a . . . .

Witness Lee:

We resend it.

Sal Benoit:

Well, I know you refunded it . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

but I want to see what we contributed to, ….

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

that . . . .

Witness Lee:

You didn’t contribute to this, you lend to it.

Sal Benoit:

Well, even if it was a loan . . . .

Original transcript · page 7 of 18
Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

The church’s money here . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

was given for a time for this . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

So since it was given for this

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

for this very reason, I can definitely see where I, have the right to ask you . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

Since I was the one that released the money for this . . . .

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

So I, here again, I’m very much personally involved . . . .

Witness Lee:

Sal, Sal . . . .

Sal Benoit:

Yes.

Witness Lee:

This is my answer.

Sal Benoit:

Yes.

Witness Lee:

You loaned to Overseas Steward . . . .

Sal Benoit:

Yes.

Witness Lee:

through Max’s hand,

Sal Benoit:

Yes.

Witness Lee:

and later we refund.

Sal Benoit:

Yes.

Witness Lee:

That’s all.

Sal Benoit:

Well, Brother Lee, it’s not that simple. I just can’t see why you’re evading,

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

because it gives me, it gives me, the sense of something

Witness Lee:

No, no, no.

Sal Benoit:

…. dark.

Witness Lee:

Why you want to know this?

Sal Benoit:

Well, because I, this is very important. I’m about to make the most important

Witness Lee:

Oh, Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

decision, and I need, You see, this is important. You’re not taking care of my conscience at all.

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

I don’t see, I don’t even see it funny.

Witness Lee:

Okay, This is all time my answer. You lended to Overseas Steward . . . .

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Original transcript · page 8 of 18
Witness Lee:

then Overseas Steward refund.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Right?

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

That’s Okay.

Sal Benoit:

That’s O – that’s, to you it’s okay, but surely the evasion of the question to me . . . .

Witness Lee:

That’s not evasion.

Sal Benoit:

Well you, I asked you bluntly and frankly . . . .

Witness Lee:

What you want to know this?

Sal Benoit:

Okay, Because I was involved . . . .

Witness Lee:

What?

Sal Benoit:

in lending you . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

for a period of time . . . .

Witness Lee:

Uh.

Sal Benoit:

a hundred thousand dollars . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

and it was given to Overseas Christian . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

Stewards . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

And I did it honestly, simply . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

and faithfully towards you . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah, yeah.

Sal Benoit:

and I want to see what I contributed to now . . .

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

That’s all. . . .

Witness Lee:

Okay. This is . . . .

Sal Benoit:

I think you owe this to me.

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh. I owe you what?

Sal Benoit:

You owe me the answer to this question; what is

Witness Lee:

Okay.

Sal Benoit:

this Overseas Christian Stew . . . .

Witness Lee:

The Overseas Steward is a Steward of, composed with three brothers, representing the steward receiving gifts for the Lord’s work.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

You see? This has been there for years.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Original transcript · page 9 of 18
Witness Lee:

You see?

Sal Benoit:

For what reason?

Witness Lee:

For the Lord’s work.

Sal Benoit:

For the Lord’s work where?

Witness Lee:

In the, in the world, especially in the Far East, you see.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

It has been there for years. (doorbell rings in background)

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh. Has this Overseas Christian Steward . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

ever given money to Prosphorus (sic) Corporation?

Witness Lee:

That is Phosphorus, in Taiwan, belongs to Overseas Steward. See?

Sal Benoit:

Oh. So then, the work, the work of the Overseas Christian Steward for the Lord is a commercial business.

Witness Lee:

Oh, no, no, no, no. Not that way.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

The Overseas Steward is, is a stewardship . . . .

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

See? For the Lord’s work . . . .

Sal Benoit:

Yes?

Witness Lee:

Receiving gifts, right?

Sal Benoit:

Yes?

Witness Lee:

to do a business,

Sal Benoit:

Yes?

Witness Lee:

and the business’ name is Phosphorus.

Sal Benoit:

Yes, okay.

Witness Lee:

Right?

Sal Benoit:

So then, we gave money …to the Overseas Christian Steward . . . .

Witness Lee:

You, you lended it.

Sal Benoit:

We lent money to the Overseas Christian Steward

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

and the Overseas Christian Stewards does work for the Lord . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

in the Far East, mainly,

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

and it s a business ….

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

called Phosphorus.

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

So then, the matter of the Overseas Christian Stewards is something that is related to a private business called Phosphorus. This is what you’re saying.

Original transcript · page 10 of 18
Witness Lee:

I say again ….

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

The Overseas Steward, Overseas Christian Steward . . .

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

is stewardship representing the Lord’s work.

Sal Benoit:

Yes, is this non-profit making?

Witness Lee:

No, no. Never registered. This is never registered anywhere.

Sal Benoit:

Oh, I see. It’s not registered anywhere.

Witness Lee:

No, no, no, you see, we, me and brother . . . .

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Samuel Chang and

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

brother Wei [spelling not certain],

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

we three

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

represent Overseas Stewards. (doorbell starts and continues to ring)

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Overseas stewardship receives money . . . . (words not clear)

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

for the Lord’s work.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

You see? Then the Overseas Steward set up a factory

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

in the Far East

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

that is called Phosphorus,

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh

Witness Lee:

and then the Phosphorus factory belongs to Overseas Stewards.

Sal Benoit:

I see.

Witness Lee:

Right!

Sal Benoit:

Wasn’t Phosphorus part of Daystar?

Witness Lee:

No. Daystar is the American corporation.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Phosphorus is the Taiwan corporation.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

See? Yes, Phosphorus did produce motor homes for Daystar.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Original transcript · page 11 of 18
Witness Lee:

And Daystar sells the motor homes. Okay?

Sal Benoit:

Right, Okay, right, okay, so there, it’s kind of all related together. The

Witness Lee:

Uh-huh.

Sal Benoit:

Overseas Christian Steward, Daystar, and Phosphorus. There’s some kind of link all together with it, but I just want to know, Phosphorus, now, this manufacturing or what have you, you remember that they made parts for Daystar, the machines and what have you. Are they now making, they just, were they making tennis racquets? Was that it?

Witness Lee:

Yeah, right.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

I see. So . . . .

Witness Lee:

Because the motor home market stopped, so it turned to the ? factory.

Sal Benoit:

I see, I see. So it was making . . . .

Witness Lee:

Right, right.

Sal Benoit:

Okay, then . . . .

Witness Lee:

manufacturing tennis racquets.

Sal Benoit:

I see, I see. So then, the matter of making tennis racquets and then before that the motor homes, right?

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

There they’ve been related or connected somehow to Overseas Christian Stewards?

Witness Lee:

Overseas Christian Stewards owns the Phosphorus factory.

Sal Benoit:

I see, I see.

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And so then when Daystar went bankrupt ….

Witness Lee:

Stopped, stopped

Sal Benoit:

Right?

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

Right?

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

Now the Overseas Christian Steward took all the stock over …

Witness Lee:

No, no, no, no. Overseas Steward took nothing from Daystar.

Sal Benoit:

I see. Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Actually, Daystar owes Overseas . . .

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Okay?

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Now this is the last question ….

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

Okay. The Living Stream….

Original transcript · page 12 of 18
Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

Has it ever given any money to the Overseas Christian Stewards?

Witness Lee:

Yes, Living Stream ….

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

lends money to Overseas Stewards.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

I see. Okay, so now Living Stream is a non-profit making organization …

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

lending money to a corporation that’s kind a kind of Overseas Christian Steward . . . .

Witness Lee:

Right, right.

Sal Benoit:

And Overseas Christian Steward . . .

Witness Lee:

This is all in account.

Sal Benoit:

That’s related to the business . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

of the, of you know, just some business. So what we’re saying basically is that the brothers and sisters, you know, all the money, or, some of the money, or part of the money that goes into Living Stream, has gone to Overseas Christian Stewards, and Overseas Christian Steward has this business work that they’ve done for this purpose. Am I right?

Witness Lee:

This is the account.

Sal Benoit:

Um-hum. Okay, you know, Brother Lee, . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

I really appreciate that you’ve shared this. Of course, I don’t know why still you won’t share with me that,

Witness Lee:

What? What’s that? What?

Sal Benoit:

the matter that you some of the money from Living Stream goes to Daystar.

Witness Lee:

No.

Sal Benoit:

I just really . . . .

Witness Lee:

No, no, no, that . . . .

Sal Benoit:

To, to pay off some of

Witness Lee:

No, no money, goes Daystar

Sal Benoit:

the . . .

Witness Lee:

No, no, no.

Sal Benoit:

No, to pay off some of the back loans.

Witness Lee:

Well, that is to the church.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

That is to the church?

Original transcript · page 13 of 18
Witness Lee:

Right, right.

Sal Benoit:

Oh, so that means that some of – so Living Stream kind of does have some money that goes to pay off some of the debts. I just would like to know the truth. I, really, this, it’s nothing more than that. Please!

Witness Lee:

That is to the church. Okay.

Sal Benoit:

So the Living Stream pays it to the church?

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

And the church pays the loans, that, past loans to Daystar?

Witness Lee:

Uh, that is another story (chuckles).

Sal Benoit:

What story is that?

Witness Lee:

Well, there is no need to tell this much, Sal.

Sal Benoit:

Well, it’s very important to me, Brother Lee. It’s, I’ve

Witness Lee:

So far, so far,

Sal Benoit:

given, I’ve given . . . .

Witness Lee:

so far good enough. I . . .

Sal Benoit:

Well, the thing is I’ve given my life to it

Witness Lee:

No, No.

Sal Benoit:

And I would like,

Witness Lee:

No, No.

Sal Benoit:

To, like to get to . . .

Witness Lee:

No, No.

Sal Benoit:

The side of it.

Witness Lee:

I be very kind to you this morning, right?

Sal Benoit:

Um-hmm.

Witness Lee:

I teach you as a brother . . . .

Sal Benoit:

Yes.

Witness Lee:

Otherwise, I am not responsible to you for anything.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Well, I feel you are before the Lord.

Witness Lee:

Yeah. Okay.

Sal Benoit:

I feel maybe . . .

Witness Lee:

I’m really, I’m a [unclear word] person before the Lord.

Sal Benoit:

Sure. I feel, I feel . . .

Witness Lee:

But you have overstepping.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

You see, you have overstepped your limit.

Sal Benoit:

Yes?

Witness Lee:

See, you have no right to ask me about the Living Stream account.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

No. That is not your standing . . .

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Original transcript · page 14 of 18
Witness Lee:

But because you said to me, “You are a brother…”

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

And “You are this/that,” so okay, I just let you know, that’s good enough.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Okay?

Sal Benoit:

Well, it’s very important

Witness Lee:

Okay, now . .

Sal Benoit:

because, you see what I see here—you know, I’ve been doing a lot of research,

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

And a lot of . . .. .

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

Looking into things

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

And you know what I see here,

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

At this point, just from our little talk, you know, I . . .

Witness Lee:

You see, let me say this: the donations of the

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

saints from the church to the ministry,

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

the ministry as a coporate (sic) has the full right to use it in any way.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

Yeah, I agree with that.

Witness Lee:

That’s all, that’s all.

Sal Benoit:

Yeah, I . . .

Witness Lee:

You go over top. That is over.

Sal Benoit:

Well, . . . .

Witness Lee:

out of your limit.

Sal Benoit:

Well, like I said, the main reason why I was asking is, number one, we contributed . . .

Witness Lee:

No, no.

Sal Benoit:

as the church here, we contributed to as the church here, we contributed as

Witness Lee:

Well, . . . .

Sal Benoit:

people in trainings,

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

So you know it is not that, it’s not that simple as you put it.

Witness Lee:

That goes to the Stream Corporation.

Sal Benoit:

Right. Goes to Living Stream and Living

Original transcript · page 15 of 18
Witness Lee:

(word not clear)

Sal Benoit:

Stream has some money go to OSC . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

And OSC has some money . . . .

Witness Lee:

Stream uses. That is Living Stream’s limit.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh

Witness Lee:

See? Living Stream has its own jurisdiction.

Sal Benoit:

Yes.

Witness Lee:

Right?

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

If you don’t like to donate, just don’t donate.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

See? As you’ve donated, that goes to the account of the Living Stream.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Living Stream has its own jurisdiction. This is fair.

Sal Benoit:

Right, but Brother lee, this is what concerns me.

Witness Lee:

Yeah, you don’t need to be concerned.

Sal Benoit:

No, listen, Yes, I do, and I will tell you this, and that is that . . . .

Witness Lee:

I repeat to you, Sal. . . .

Sal Benoit:

You what?

Witness Lee:

I repeat to you: you donated to the

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

Living Stream. The Living Stream entered into the account. The Living Stream has itsown jurisdiction

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

to use it. This is all. If you ask me further

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

I am not responsible to tell you.

Sal Benoit:

Well, you see . . . .

Witness Lee:

I have explained to you already.

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh, well . . . .

Witness Lee:

Let’s stop here, Okay?

Sal Benoit:

Yeah, well, I would like to end with a last word. Here I like, I . . .

Witness Lee:

(words not clear)

Sal Benoit:

Please! Let me speak! You see, you control the conversation and of course I’m . . . .

Witness Lee:

No.

Sal Benoit:

I’m being, I’m being blamed . . .

Witness Lee:

No.

Sal Benoit:

See, look at right now.

Original transcript · page 16 of 18
Witness Lee:

(words not clear)

Sal Benoit:

I’m being blamed for

Witness Lee:

(words not clear)

Sal Benoit:

setting up hierarchy,

Witness Lee:

(words not clear)

Sal Benoit:

etcetera, etcetera, and yet still I can’t even bring things out, I can’t even speak

Witness Lee:

I told …

Sal Benoit:

to you clearly . . . .

Witness Lee:

I just like to stop the talk. Sorry.

Sal Benoit:

Okay, listen, Brother Lee.

Witness Lee:

Okay, you talk. If you talk in fellowshipping way, I like it.

Sal Benoit:

Okay, well, I’m fellowshipping with you

Witness Lee:

You talk this way, yeah.

Sal Benoit:

as a brother.

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

Brother Lee, I’ve been looking into these things . . . . and I’m just concerned as a brother for you. I’ve appreciated your ministry . . . .

Witness Lee:

Okay.

Sal Benoit:

You’ve been bringing me up in the Lord.

Witness Lee:

When you talk this way, I like to talk.

Sal Benoit:

Okay. This is the truth, and this is why

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

I’m concerned for this. You’ve helped me in the Lord; you’ve helped me in the Word . . .

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

And you’ve brought me up and I’m very grateful to you, . . . .

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

And I speak this as before the Lord. I’ve learned things, I’ve been taught things that I never would have known unless the Lord would have brought me to you. The handling of the Word, the sensing of things, has been abundance of experience that you’ve handed to me, and I appreciate this greatly.

Witness Lee:

Sure.

Sal Benoit:

I really do, and I just would like to tell you this.

Witness Lee:

Yeah, Good.

Sal Benoit:

These days, you know I of course am put in qa position that I have to make a decision. The decision, as we know, is whether I would stand for the ministry, your ministry, or if I would stand for brother Max, and as you

Original transcript · page 17 of 18
Sal Benoit:

know, he’s been here with us, and I just realize that this is a very crucial decisions for me. So I’ve had to be searching

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

things, looking to things, and exercising as much as I possibly

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

of the things you have taught me . . . .

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

before God.

Witness Lee:

I have to, you know when I was there,

Sal Benoit:

Uh-huh.

Witness Lee:

I asked you to bring the things before the Lord, right?

Sal Benoit:

That’s right, that’s right, but, and this is what I’ve been doing.

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

Now, of course, you know,

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

and I’ve been trying to be open to God, . . . .

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

to please, “I will drop any concept, I would turn from anything…

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

that’s not of Yourself.”

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

I don’t want something that’s not of God in

Witness Lee:

No.

Sal Benoit:

my life.

Witness Lee:

Right.

Sal Benoit:

And I do want to walk upright before the Lord.

Witness Lee:

That’s good.

Sal Benoit:

And, anyway, this is, no doubt here, another – this is why I’ve asked you the questions, because I have felt that this is very important also to me. Maybe you don’t think it is [unclear word] my business, or what have you, but the position I’m in, it’s very crucial to me to know the whole thing. Of course, you say I don’t need to but . . . .

Witness Lee:

Sal.

Sal Benoit:

You know, I just tell you my feeling.

Witness Lee:

Yeah.

Sal Benoit:

Now, as I see it, Brother Lee, a non-profit-making organization. . . .

Witness Lee:

It’s the account of this I put already…

Sal Benoit:

Yes . . .

Witness Lee:

You don’t need to waste time . . .

Sal Benoit:

Yes . . .

Original transcript · page 18 of 18
Witness Lee:

not waste time at all.

Sal Benoit:

I would just finish with this before you.

Witness Lee:

No. If you talk further about this, I’ll stop. Sorry.

Sal Benoit:

Okay, well, . . . .

Witness Lee:

If you fellowship with me about other things, that’s okay.

Sal Benoit:

Well, Brother Lee, I just feel, in my research, in my speaking to C.P.A.’s, my looking into things, before law, I feel ashamed

Witness Lee:

No, no, don’t do this. Stop.

Sal Benoit:

that you have ….

Witness Lee:

I, stop. Stop, Sal.

Sal Benoit:

Manipulated . . . .

Witness Lee:

If you talk further,

Sal Benoit:

that you have ….

Witness Lee:

this will stop.

Sal Benoit:

committed ….

Witness Lee:

Okay, Sal. (Lee hangs up the phone.)

Recording note:

Conversation is ended.

About this transcription

The wording, punctuation, bracketed notes, and unclear passages below follow the source PDF. The original identifies Sal Benoit with black text and Witness Lee with blue text; its opening exchange identifies the other participant only as “Female voice.” This HTML version labels that opening participant as Sister Lee and adds explicit speaker labels for readability and accessibility. Page markers correspond to the 18-page PDF.

Participants
Sal Benoit, Witness Lee, Sister Lee
Date
1978
Source
Layman’s Fellowship PDF ↗